“Right after the war the Iranians used to look at the US as a big brother who saved Iran from being disintegrated by the hand of the Soviet Union.”
Depending on whom you were talking to! Not if you were talking to SUMKA members or many Iranians who were Germano-feel!
“If it was not because of Harry Truman’s (the Democratic president of the US) standing firm against Stalin, today the map of Iran would have looked very differently.”
Of course you had to mention that he was a Democrat, you simply could not let that slide, could you? No one ever said that all Democrats are incompetent in foreign policy. Roosevelt, Truman, Kennedy, etc. were very competent.
“Azerbaijan, Kurdistan, even maybe Mazandaran Gilan and Khorasan would not be part of today’s Iran.”
Again depending on whom you are talking to! For instance our chef back in Iran was a hardcore Kurd Guerilla in his youth and whenever we were discussing politics, he always blamed America for the Kurdish to lose the war to Shah.
“if it was not because of the US even the British would not have left after the war. Now that the British had lost their superpower status to the Americans and also owed their victory against the Germens to them they had to listen to the Americans and honor the treaty and move out of Iran.”
This is exactly what I have been trying to reason with you. America is not a conquering and Occupying Empire but it is a Trade Empire. America invades, liberates and leaves the country after it is stable enough to leave; therefore, they can trade with them. The value of the liberated nation as a trade partner and a new market for American products is much higher than its value as a colony! America is not a colonialist but a trader. Free Markets are the key to America’s super power status.
Only if the New Democratic Party, Obama and other Socialists could understand that!
Why is it that DNC Chairs are getting more psychotic and more Radically Marxist by the day?
First Howard Dean and now this Femi-Nazi Debbie Wasserman Schultz? Who’s next? Michael Moore or Sean Penn? Maybe Oliver Stone?
Forget about it (Italian Style), your party is now owned by Coo-Coo Nuts, Radicals and Marxists!
Read:Should US Invade and Liberate Iran?http://iranpoliticsclub.net/club/viewto ... 17573#7296
“the Iranians gave the credit to the Americans for the departure of the British from Iran.”
I understand why many Iranians must have liked America in the late 1940s and early 1950s (before 1953). I could not understand why they would still love them after 1953!
The same Marshal Plan which today, the South America has rejected along with the IMF lead by US. Venezuela, Bolivia, Cuba, Nicaragua (Marxists) and Argentina, Brazil, Paraguay, Ecuador (Socialists) had combinely voted it out. South America is moving towards the left and a possible future “South American Union” like EU.
“Truman had started a mini "Marshal Plan" in Iran and other "Third World Countries" called "Truman's Point 4 Plan" (Asle-4-e Truman).”
“Not that America had saved us from the Soviets but they also became the new superpower replacing the British that was number one enemy of Iran and used to abuse their power against Iran in every which way that they were able to and we did not have anyone to help us. After the WWII, it was the Americans that were dictating the policies in the Middle East not the British. To us the Iranians, over a century of British-abuses was over.”
Understood. As a historian I am perfectly aware of that.
“Now Iran had the Americans to rely on. That is why we used to look at America as a big brother until their 1953 intervention which the love for America had changed into a love and hate feelings. That feelings still exists because even though that America was the partial participant in 1953 in Iran losing its democratic system of government replaced by a dictatorship poppet government system but by the same token the people of Iran could not forget that America was also the savior of Iran by preventing its disintegration which was by far more important.”
Exactly. Love Hate Relationship is the best way to put it.
“That feelings of my generation has been transferred to present day generation which is the reason you see today Iranians have love and hate feelings toward the US. Love her for what Truman had done and hate her for what Eisenhower had done. Maybe that is why I am a Democrat not a Republican.”
C’mon Liberal, give me a break! It goes both ways:Love for Nixon for supporting the Imperial Progressive Iran.
Hate for Carter for betraying the Imperial Progressive Iran.
Love for Reagan for destruction of Global Communism.
Hate for Obama for the second betrayal of Iran not backing opposition in 2009.
“Mr. Ahreeman X or should I say Dr. X!”
You can call me Ahreeman, Dr. X, Ahreeman Mirza Qajar, Gorg Ali in Exile, Huckleberry or whatever else you like but I ain’t your Daisy!
Maziar, even though a liberal, we still love you!
We (All of us) including The Father @ Under (Ahreeman), The Son @ Above (Dr. X) and the Spiritual Intermediate between the two worlds (Raven) all love you!
We (Ahreeman, Dr. X and Raven) like them (Father, Son and The Holy Ghost) love you!
“Your argument that if Mossadegh would have succeeded there was a possibility that eventually Toodeh Party could have prevailed and Iran could have become a communist country does not hold water, as the New Yorkers would say.”
But it holds Eggnog, no? Forget about it (New York Italian Style)!
I still believe USSR and Tudeh Communists would swallow Mossadeq’s regime. Also Mossadeq is not the saint which you libs make of him. He was an arrogant, stubborn, self centered unrealist who did not have a clear vision of the world at the time.
Said that, I must admit that now (unlike the past) I believe that 28 Mordad was a mistake and one way or another we would be better off without the Shah and / or without the monarchy.
We would be better off if Reza Khan had ended the monarchy (1925) or if people have ended the monarchy (1953). Islamic Revolution (1979) would have never occurred.
Islam is the direct result of Monarchy.
Islam is like Chancre Sores created by the Monarchy which is the Syphilis!
“Let me elaborate on that subject; the original WWII Alleys, meaning the British and the Soviets, signed a treaty with Reza Shah that, in brief as follows:
1- The Allied forces would enter the country as guest not hostile forces
2- They were allowed to use all facilities in Iran specifically the railroad
3-The Allied would leave the country not later than six months after the end of the war
4- Government of Iran would not take any hostile actions against the Allied Forces
5- Reza Shah would accept the forced exile.”
But anyway you sugar coat it, the Allies had invaded and occupied a sovereign nation to use it as the Bridge to Victory because:a) Iran’s Strategical Value
b) Iran was a Nazi Sympathizer
“Toward the final years of the war Stalin came up with the idea of expanding the Soviet territory into part of Iran.”
Wasn’t Stalin a son of a bitch? He killed more people (specifically his own people) than Hitler (about 20 million total) but until this day Marxists and the Left justify his crimes and some worship him!
“It was at this period that Truman sent an ultimatum to Stalin; either move your troops out of Iran or you will have a war against the U S on your hand, and started moving the U S naval fleet toward the Indian Ocean.”
Hey I don’t care what they say about Harry Truman, but I like the guy! See, Ahreeman can also have feelings for Democrats! I love you too!
“When the Iranian Army approached the city of Tabriz the people of Tabriz themselves disarmed the poppet government even before the army’s arrival”
Yes the majority of minorities in Iran are Nationalist Iranians and not separatists but unless the future government of Iran is a “Federal” system understanding to the needs of the minorities, we will still have separatist songs all over Iran.
What Imperial Iran and IRI have done (Centralism) has been oppressive to the minorities. Federalism is the only key for the survival of the Iranian Empire which is a pot full of many cultures.History of Federalism in Iranhttp://iranpoliticsclub.net/history/fed ... /index.htm
BTW, what is your take on Federalism for Iran?
“with the exception of a few, there were no Toodeh sympathizers among the major players in Iranian politics.”
You the same as Mossadeq are underestimating the power of the Tudeh Party (back then).
“This notion of; “that the communists could have taken over in a democratic Iran” was the propagandas that had started in early 1950s in the U S which was the beginning of the McCarthyism in that country.”
True but my opinion is not based on propaganda but on historical facts.
“When Kermit (Kim) Roosevelt, the CIA Station Chief in the American embassy in Tehran staged the second coup against Mossadegh, with the S1, 000,000 budgets that he had in hand, he bribed a few top ayatollahs, Namely Ayatollah Kashani $10,000, and numerous “Jaahels” which handed them several thousands of Five-Toomani-bills to spread it in the ghettos.”
Perfect cooperation between Shiite and Monarchy!The Historical Relation between Monarchy and Shiite!http://iranpoliticsclub.net/history/mon ... /index.htm
But hey, 5 Tooman then was valuable. Remember the old 5 Tooman bills?
You could have a great Kubideh Kabob, charbroiled tomatoes side, basil leaves, raw onions all on Sangak bread at the local Kaboby and then have more to spend on other things!
Talking about Kabob Kubideh, I am getting hungry. It is my favorite!
I remember that Statue. One of our estates was located in Sepah Avenue across the 2nd gate of the military academy.
“Toodeh leadership had sent their people in “Meydaane Ceppah (Sepah)”, the largest square in Tehran, and started bringing down the statue of Reza Shah, a majestic statue; with Reza Shah sitting on the hors.”
BTW, what is a “hors”?
Is it a Huri from heaven?
Is it a supernatural whore?
Is it a Khajeh horse?
Or do you mean Horse?
Baba jan have you heard of Microsoft Word spell check?
Vase Jahel oft dareh!
And for an author of your stature it is shameful!
Also to get the hang of all the toys in the forum, check the “BB Code” section in the FAQ link on top right of the Club homepage (as I have sent you the link). It introduces you to all the toys and gadgets in the IPC Club Forum.
Pulling down your shorts!
Interesting. It is very interesting to hear the story from your mouth who was an eye witness and it is very interesting to hear your take as an author.
“The CIA immediately publicized on the radio that the Toodehs are trying to take over the government and immediately, on the same day, printed the picture of statue of Reza Shah coming down in the “Fogholadeh paper” the (Extra). Since the Mossadegh supporters were the arch enemies of the Toodehs, they did not want to have any part in those demonstrations so they stayed home. At this time the army stepped in; arrested and scattered the Toodeh demonstrators and left the stage for the thug demonstrators and on the same evening a Marshal Law was declared. The whole country including the Mossadegh supporters was taken by surprise and were too much in shock to take any kind of action. The next day Mossadegh was arrested and the Marshal Law stayed in force for the next five years until early 1958. Perhaps Mr. Roosevelt should have sent a thank you note to the Toodeh leadership for his success.”
“Answer to Q 1: This question of yours is in regard to my comments in my memoir against the Ghajars “Qajars” which I will answer later for keeping our discussion of Reza Shah vs. Mohammad Reza Shah separate from the Qajars.”
You can create a topic in the Political Activist Roomhttp://iranpoliticsclub.net/club/viewforum.php?f=46
and answer it or you can answer it here or where ever, but I still need an answer:Q1. Hypothetically in the future Iran, if we have to kill a million (Muslim, Hezbollah, IRGC, Mullahs, etc.) to save 74 million Iranians and Iran, are you willing to do so?
(As an Iranian Opposition member for 33 years, I am ready to kill even 2 millions!)
“Answer to Q 2: It was supposed to be a revolution that Iran needed very badly but it changed into a reaction after the mullahs stepped in.”
Ahreeman begs to differ; it was a reaction from the beginning because the Mosque had well planned the whole thing from the Get-go!
This is why I always refer to 1979 as a Reaction.
I am truly impressed with your fairness. Mossadeq and Jebhe Melli are liberals and so are you. So I assumed that this would affect your historical judgment, but I have to admit that I have to give you more credit as a fair historical author.
“By the way the J. M. members including Mossadegh did not want to make the organization a party because its members who were all bunch of upper class aristocrats did not want the sons and daughters of plumbers and carpenters to be able to join.”
Yes, Mossadeq and his buddies were arrogant Qajar aristocrats. Believe me, I know the type. They are my people from my dynasty.
You are absolutely correct and I urge you to complete this task so you will encourage others to jump in and help. We even created the forum as you wished.Brainstorming for the Future Government of Iran Roomhttp://iranpoliticsclub.net/club/viewforum.php?f=47
“That is why, for the next revolution, I have suggested the creation of a political party complete with a charter popular with the majority of progressive minded people of Iran. Its charter should be so well written that could become, tentatively, the next constitution of Iran.”
“If the party is popular with the majority and even if only some percent of the majority joins the party, there would not be any need for arm-struggle or any foreign power intervention for toppling an unpopular or better said a hated regime.”
I do not agree with you. Regimes such as IRI or Nazi Germany cannot be toppled solely by the will of the people. 2009 failed Uprising was the perfect lesson to learn.
“Those oppositions to the present regime who are against the formation of a party, as I described, are only day dreamers. The party that I have mentioned above must form abroad because of the restrictions exists at home.”
Agreed and agreed
Maziar jan, I am specifically talking about Bakhtiar. Shouldn’t people have given him a chance to reform the Imperial Regime rather than destroy the whole nation?Immortals Then and Nowhttp://iranpoliticsclub.net/club/viewtopic.php?t=250
“Answer to Q 3: In my opinion absolutely not; as I mentioned in my memoir, “The fish was rotted from the head””
I know you may say that by then it was too late and people wanted an end to monarchy, but wasn’t this a nation committing suicide?
I still believe that we could reform the Imperial Regime rather than creating a Revolution which ended up as a Reaction!
“monarchy regime is an outdated obsolete system which is the subject of different discussion. In brief it is like; at the age of cell phone and satellites you still work with your rotary dial-phone.”
This is beside the fact and aside from my question above.
I have no dispute with you on that. In fact I have written many philosophical, political and historical articles about the flaws of monarchy and its medieval nature, such as these:
How Republicans and Monarchists view the world?
http://iranpoliticsclub.net/philosophy/ ... /index.htm
Role of the 21st Century Monarchs and Monarchists
Monarchy is an old skeleton which must be put to rest in the bookshelf of “Old and Outdated Flawed Ideas
”; however illogical and uninformed public such as many British, Canadians and Iranians still glorify this medieval backward system of government. I do not know what is it about the monarchy that these people love:
Imperial Families’ gossip columns?
The Monkey suits?
Being ruled by an unelected official?
The waste of tax payers’ money?
If you notice, in most majority of cases, the same people who love being slave to some God (Theists) are also most likely willing to be slave to some monarch (monarchists). After all, Shah gets his power from the God! This is medieval culture of slavery.
BTW, have you read this:
Why Reza Pahlavi Cannot Lead Iranian Opposition?
Read the article, specifically the part about the Imperial Generals and give me your take on that?
By majority, I have the outmost respect for the Imperial Officers and the Immortals; however, I have no respect for the Imperial Generals.
I know you will bring up the fact that they were trained not to think for themselves and remain lap dogs, but still I hold them very much responsible for not backing Bakhtiar and the victory of Khomeini. Of course there are always exceptions and we had some worthy Generals who were murdered and who are still alive (as you know it).
One request: Reza Shah Memory
Please write a paragraph or two about your Reza Shah Memory which you told me about it. I believe it is great for the readers to hear it from the horse’s mouth. You have a life time of historical memories which you should not deprive the youth of reading them. I promise I will not base on you about the age. You must understand that age means nothing; it is all about the brains. I don’t know why you have a thing about being called old! I am old. I am an old man. Being old means I am wise and experienced. Besides, you look great for your age. Some people age horribly but you age gracefully. You are always young in heart. So please tell the story and many other stories which you may have. It is very educational and historically important for the youth to read your memories and experiences. Don’t deprive them of their history.
Now I shall state that,
Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi has done many good for Iran. You may not agree but it is a historical fact. He made many mistakes, had many flaws and his legacy will always remain that he was the last Shah of Iran who handed Iran to Islam. It was on his watch which Iran got destroyed. What I most criticize him for is not granting democracy when it was needed (until it was too late) but furthermore his cowardly escape in 2 separate occasions (1953 and 1979). However, still I believe that he was a nationalist and he had done many goods for Iran. Another beef that I have with him is for being a superstitious Muslim!
I am sure that you can bring up 20 different cases that he damaged Iran beyond repair and I can bring up a number of goods which he had done for Iran. Most likely you and I both are aware of which cases the other party would bring forward, because both you and I are students of history.
I am sure the most debatable issue will be the White Revolution which you will state that it was implemented half ass; therefore, it failed and I would bring up the constructive aspects of it.
Both of us try to be fair judges of history, but you end up too critical of the Shah and I end up too supportive of Shah. The funny thing is that while people like you believe that I am way too supportive of Shah, at the same time monarchists believe that I am way too critical of the shah to the point that I have trashed him. Monarchists are very critical of me.
The reality is that I am only trying to be a fair historian. The man had done many goods for Iran and he was a good nationalist. Maybe he made more mistakes than he done good and maybe he was largely responsible for the present disaster (IRI), but this does not mean that he had intentionally destroyed Iran! He was ignorant of secularism, federalism, democracy and many things, but he was not surely the monster which you portrayed him to be!
You have brought many issues forward. These issues have been obscured by the clouds of history. Clouds of history which has been put intentionally by the monarchists over these issues to slide them under the Persian Carpet! You exposed these issues. You had many good points and you have unveiled many corruptions. Your memoirs are extremely valuable and historically relevant but I still believe that you hold liberal biased and the roots of it lie in your bad experiences which you have suffered during your youth and your service under the Shah in the Imperial Iran. I am perfectly aware of the injustice which you and others may have suffered under his rule.
I try to be a fair judge of characters and history.
As I always said:
Reza Shah had balls of steel
Mohammad Reza had balls of copper
Reza Pahlavi II has cotton balls
We both agree that Reza Khan was a great man; furthermore, I refer to him as Father of the Nation. He had many flaws too! But look at what he had accomplished. He would have accomplished more if he would have not surrendered to the monarchists and Shiite, yet he would turn Iran to a Republic on 1925.
But you need to less criticize the Shah because if you grant all your criticism to Mohammad Reza Shah, then what will you hand to Reza Pahlavi II?
In comparison to Mohammad Reza Shah, his son Reza Pahlavi II is a microscopic Dirt Stain on the history of Iran. RP is a disgrace! Please save some criticism for him! But knowing you, right away you will say that comparing MRP to RP is like comparing Apples to Oranges, because MRP was a Shah but RP is a prince who never become a Shah.
The old chubby kitchen chef prince who never become a Shah ……
I can never stop bashing RP. In fact in the future, I will publish the documents from the 2nd failed Coup (after Nozhe) which he did not back the coup and this is why the Imperial Generals, Patriots and Nationalists have failed for the second time. Reza Pahlavi II has committed treason by not supporting the 2nd coup. I believe he should simply shut his mouth, get out of politics and spend the rest of his days attending his kitchen rather than making a fool of himself still trying to become Shah! The man is delusional. Just think of it, seriously, can you believe this guy still wants to become Shah? And there are still detached Iranians from reality (monarchists) who still believe that this can one day come true! After 33 years, they still dream of monarchy! Now that, I call wishful thinking by the mathematical possibilities of under 1 % to turn in to reality. You must give the monarchists credit for wild imaginations! After all they have nothing better to do but fantasizing while smoking that opium and drinking that vodka in their opium dens!
But then again are Monarchists more of a dreamers than Marxists or Mojaheds? They all want to return an outdated ideology back to the 21st century! Monarchy, Marxism and Marxist Islamism are all yesterday’s news but these people are all overzealously imaginative and full of wishful thinking!
I do not understand why Iranians do not spend all their efforts planning to build the future of Iran based on the latest political ideologies, economical ideologies, philosophical ideologies and scientific ideologies?
Why do Iranians live in the past?
How about trading their medieval beliefs for concepts such as:
Why are Iranians still live in LaLa Land?
This is why I strongly emphasize that we must end the Culture of Slavery and the Shiite Mentality in Iran. Iranian Muslim, Bahai, Jew, Christian, etc. no matter what, they are all infected with the Shiite Mentality because they are the products of growing up in that infested community no matter inside or outside Iran.
We must destroy the prison of the mind and break the chain and cycle of abuse. We must at last break this round and round cycle which goes from generation to generation and empowers the corruption and the medieval values rather than Pure Persian Pride and the Persianhood!
In hope for better days,
More power to all freedom fighters of Iran