Democracy of Darius

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Democracy of Darius

Postby alimostofi » Tue May 24, 2005 11:37 am

The Persians Reject Democracy/Darius' State

III.80: And now when five days were gone, and the hubbub had settled down, the conspirators met together to consult about the situation of affairs.

At this meeting speeches were made, to which many of the Hellenes give no credence, but they were made nevertheless. Otanes recommended that the management of public affairs should be entrusted to the whole nation. "To me," he said, "it seems advisable, that we should no longer have a single man to rule over us---the rule of one is neither good nor pleasant. You cannot have forgotten to what lengths Cambyses went in his haughty tyranny, and the haughtiness of the Magi you have yourselves experienced. How indeed is it possible that monarchy should be a well-adjusted thing, when it allows a man to do as he likes without being answerable? Such licence is enough to stir strange and unwonted thoughts in the heart of the worthiest of men. Give a person this power, and straightway his manifold good things puff him up with pride, while envy is so natural to human kind that it cannot but arise in him. But pride and envy together include all wickedness---both of them leading on to deeds of savage violence.

True it is that kings, possessing as they do all that heart can desire, ought to be void of envy; but the contrary is seen in their conduct towards the citizens. They are jealous of the most virtuous among their subjects, and wish their death; while they take delight in the meanest and basest, being ever ready to listen to the tales of slanderers. A king, besides, is beyond all other men inconsistent with himself. Pay him court in moderation, and he is angry because you do not show him more profound respect--- show him profound respect, and he is offended again, because (as he says) you fawn on him. But the worst of all is, that he sets aside the laws of the land, puts men to death without trial, and subjects women to violence. The rule of the many, on the other hand, has, in the first place, the fairest of names, to wit, isonomy; and further it is free from all those outrages which a king is wont to commit. There, places are given by lot, the magistrate is answerable for what he does, and measures rest with the commonalty. I vote, therefore, that we do away with monarchy, and raise the people to power. For the people are all in all."

III.81: Such were the sentiments of Otanes. Megabyzus spoke next, and advised the setting up of an oligarchy: "In all that Otanes has said to persuade you to put down monarchy," he observed, "I fully concur; but his recommendation that we should call the people to power seems to me not the best advice. For there is nothing so void of understanding, nothing so full of wantonness, as the unwieldy rabble. It were folly not to be borne, for men, while seeking to escape the wantonness of a tyrant, to give themselves up to the wantonness of a rude unbridled mob. The tyrant, in all his doings, at least knows what is he about, but a mob is altogether devoid of knowledge; for how should there be any knowledge in a rabble, untaught, and with no natural sense of what is right and fit? It rushes wildly into state affairs with all the fury of a stream swollen in the winter, and confuses everything. Let the enemies of the Persians be ruled by democracies; but let us choose out from the citizens a certain number of the worthiest, and put the government into their hands. For thus both we ourselves shall be among the governors, and power being entrusted to the best men, it is likely that the best counsels will prevail in the state."

III.82: This was the advice which Megabyzus gave, and after him Darius came forward, and spoke as follows: "All that Megabyzus said against democracy was well said, I think; but about oligarchy he did not speak advisedly; for take these three forms of government---democracy, oligarchy, and monarchy---and let them each be at their best, I maintain that monarchy far surpasses the other two. What government can possibly be better than that of the very best man in the whole state? The counsels of such a man are like himself, and so he governs the mass of the people to their heart's content; while at the same time his measures against evil-doers are kept more secret than in other states. Contrariwise, in oligarchies, where men vie with each other in the service of the commonwealth, fierce enmities are apt to arise between man and man, each wishing to be leader, and to carry his own measures; whence violent quarrels come, which lead to open strife, often ending in bloodshed. Then monarchy is sure to follow; and this too shows how far that rule surpasses all others.

Again, in a democracy, it is impossible but that there will be malpractices: these malpractices, however, do not lead to enmities, but to close friendships, which are formed among those engaged in them, who must hold well together to carry on their villainies. And so things go on until a man stands forth as champion of the commonalty, and puts down the evil-doers. Straightway the author of so great a service is admired by all, and from being admired soon comes to be appointed king; so that here too it is plain that monarchy is the best government. Lastly, to sum up all in a word, whence, I ask, was it that we got the freedom which we enjoy? Did democracy give it us, or oligarchy, or a monarch? As a single man recovered our freedom for us, my sentence is that we keep to the rule of one. Even apart from this, we ought not to change the laws of our forefathers when they work fairly; for to do so is not well."

III.83: Such were the three opinions brought forward at this meeting; the four other Persians voted in favor of the last. Otanes, who wished to give his countrymen a democracy, when he found the decision against him, arose a second time, and spoke thus before the assembly: "Brother conspirators, it is plain that the king who is to be chosen will be one of ourselves, whether we make the choice by casting lots for the prize, or by letting the people decide which of us they will have to rule over them, in or any other way. Now, as I have neither a mind to rule nor to be ruled, I shall not enter the lists with you in this matter. I withdraw, however, on one condition---none of you shall claim to exercise rule over me or my seed for ever." The six agreed to these terms, and Otanes withdraw and stood aloof from the contest. And still to this day the family of Otanes continues to be the only free family in Persia; those who belong to it submit to the rule of the king only so far as they themselves choose; they are bound, however, to observe the laws of the land like the other Persians.

III.84: After this the six took counsel together, as to the fairest way of setting up a king: and first, with respect to Otanes, they resolved, that if any of their own number got the kingdom, Otanes and his seed after him should receive year by year, as a mark of special honor, a Median robe, and all such other gifts as are accounted the most honorable in Persia. And these they resolved to give him, because he was the man who first planned the outbreak, and who brought the seven together. These privileges, therefore, were assigned specially to Otanes. The following were made common to them all: It was to be free to each, whenever he pleased, to enter the palace unannounced, unless the king were in the company of one of his wives; and the king was to be bound to marry into no family excepting those of the conspirators. Concerning the appointment of a king, the resolve to which they came was the following: They would ride out together next morning into the skirts of the city, and he whose steed first neighed after the sun was up should have the kingdom.

III.85: Now Darius had a groom, a sharp-witted knave, called Oibares. After the meeting had broken up, Darius sent for him, and said, "Oibares, this is the way in which the king is to be chosen---we are to mount our horses, and the man whose horse first neighs after the sun is up is to have the kingdom. If then you have any cleverness, contrive a plan whereby the prize may fall to us, and not go to another." "Truly, master," Oibares answered, "if it depends on this whether you shall be king or no, set your heart at ease, and fear nothing: I have a charm which is sure not to fail." "If you have really anything of the kind," said Darius, "hasten to get it ready. The matter does not brook delay, for the trial is to be tomorrow." So Oibares when he heard that, did as follows: When night came, he took one of the mares, the chief favorite of the horse which Darius rode, and tethering it in the suburb, brought his master's horse to the place; then, after leading him round and round the mare several times, nearer and nearer at each circuit, he ended by letting them come together.

III.86: And now, when the morning broke, the six Persians, according to agreement, met together on horseback, and rode out to the suburb. As they went along they neared the spot where the mare was tethered the night before, whereupon the horse of Darius sprang forward and neighed. just at the same time, though the sky was clear and bright, there was a flash of lightning, followed by a thunderclap. It seemed as if the heavens conspired with Darius, and hereby inaugurated him king: so the five other nobles leaped with one accord from their steeds, and bowed down before him and owned him for their king.

III.87: This is the account which some of the Persians gave of the contrivance of Oibares; but there are others who relate the matter differently. They say that in the morning he stroked the mare with his hand, which he then hid in his trousers until the sun rose and the horses were about to start, when he suddenly drew his hand forth and put it to the nostrils of his master's horse, which immediately snorted and neighed.

III.88: Thus was Darius, son of Hystaspes, appointed king; and, except the Arabians, all they of Asia were subject to him; for Cyrus, and after him Cambyses, had brought them all under. The Arabians were never subject as slaves to the Persians, but had a league of friendship with them from the time when they brought Cambyses on his way as he went into Egypt; for had they been unfriendly the Persians could never have made their invasion.

And now Darius contracted marriages of the first rank, according to the notions of the Persians: to wit, with two daughters of Cyrus, Atossa and Artystone; of whom, Atossa had been twice married before, once to Cambyses, her brother, and once to the Magus, while the other, Artystone, was a virgin. He married also Parmys, daughter of Smerdis, son of Cyrus; and he likewise took to wife the daughter of Otanes, who had made the discovery about the Magus. And now when his power was established firmly throughout all the kingdoms, the first thing that he did was to set up a carving in stone, which showed a man mounted upon a horse, with an inscription in these words following: "Darius, son of Hystaspes, by aid of his good horse" (here followed the horse's name), "and of his good groom Oibares, got himself the kingdom of the Persians."

III.89: This he set up in Persia; and afterwards he proceeded to establish twenty governments of the kind which the Persians call satrapies, assigning to each its governor, and fixing the tribute which was to be paid him by the several nations. And generally he joined together in one satrapy the nations that were neighbors, but sometimes he passed over the nearer tribes, and put in their stead those which were more remote. The following is an account of these governments, and of the yearly tribute which they paid to the king: Such as brought their tribute in silver were ordered to pay according to the Babylonian talent; while the Euboic was the standard measure for such as brought gold. Now the Babylonian talent contains seventy Euboic minae. During all the reign of Cyrus, and afterwards when Cambyses ruled, there were no fixed tributes, but the nations severally brought gifts to the king. On account of this and other like doings, the Persians say that Darius was a huckster, Cambyses a master, and Cyrus a father; for Darius looked to making a gain in everything; Cambyses was harsh and reckless; while Cyrus was gentle, and procured them all manner of goods.

III.90: The Ionians, the Magnesians of Asia, the Aeolians, the Carians, the Lycians, the Milyans, and the Pamphylians, paid their tribute in a single sum, which was fixed at four hundred talents of silver. These formed together the first satrapy.

The Mysians, Lydians, Lasonians, Cabalians, and Hygennians paid the sum of five hundred talents. This was the second satrapy.

The Hellespontians, of the right coast as one enters the straits, the Phrygians, the Asiatic Thracians, the Paphlagonians, the Mariandynians' and the Syrians paid a tribute of three hundred and sixty talents. This was the third satrapy.

The Cilicians gave three hundred and sixty white horses, one for each day in the year, and five hundred talents of silver. Of this sum one hundred and forty talents went to pay the cavalry which guarded the country, while the remaining three hundred and sixty were received by Darius. This was the fourth satrapy.

III.91: The country reaching from the city of Posideium (built by Amphilochus, son of Amphiaraus, on the confines of Syria and Cilicia) to the borders of Egypt, excluding therefrom a district which belonged to Arabia and was free from tax, paid a tribute of three hundred and fifty talents. All Phoenicia, Palestine Syria, and Cyprus, were herein contained. This was the fifth satrapy.

From Egypt, and the neighbouring parts of Libya, together with the towns of Cyrene and Barca, which belonged to the Egyptian satrapy, the tribute which came in was seven hundred talents. These seven hundred talents did not include the profits of the fisheries of Lake Moeris, nor the corn furnished to the troops at Memphis. Corn was supplied to 120,000 Persians, who dwelt at Memphis in the quarter called the White Castle, and to a number of auxiliaries. This was the sixth satrapy.

The Sattagydians, the Gandarians, the Dadicae, and the Aparytae, who were all reckoned together, paid a tribute of a hundred and seventy talents. This was the seventh satrapy.

Susa, and the other parts of Cissia, paid three hundred talents. This was the eighth satrapy.

III.92: From Babylonia, and the rest of Assyria, were drawn a yousand talents of silver, and five hundred boy-eunuchs. This was the ninth satrapy.

Agbatana, and the other parts of Media, together with the Paricanians and Orthocorybantes, paid in all four hundred and fifty talents. This was the tenth satrapy.

The Caspians, Pausicae, Pantimathi, and Daritae, were joined in one government, and paid the sum of two hundred talents. This was the eleventh satrapy.

From the Bactrian tribes as far as the Aegli the tribute received was three hundred and sixty talents. This was the twelfth satrapy.

III.93: From Pactyica, Armenia, and the countries reaching thence to the Euxine, the sum drawn was four hundred talents. This was the thirteenth satrapy.

The Sagartians, Sarangians, Thamanaeans, Utians, and Mycians, together with the inhabitants of the islands in the Erythraean sea, where the king sends those whom he banishes, furnished altogether a tribute of six hundred talents. This was the fourteenth satrapy.

The Sacans and Caspians gave two hundred and fifty talents. This was the fifteenth satrapy.

The Parthians, Chorasmians, Sogdians, and Arians, gave three hundred. This was the sixteenth satrapy.

III.94: The Paricanians and Ethiopians of Asia furnished a tribute of four hundred talents. This was the seventeenth satrapy.

The Matienians, Saspeires, and Alarodians were rated to pay two hundred talents. This was the eighteenth satrapy.

The Moschi, Tibareni, Macrones, Mosynoeci, and Mares had to pay three hundred talents. This was the nineteenth satrapy.

The Indians, who are more numerous than any other nation with which we are acquainted, paid a tribute exceeding that of every other people, to wit, three hundred and sixty talents of gold-dust. This was the twentieth satrapy.

III.95: If the Babylonian money here spoken of be reduced to the Euboic scale, it will make nine yousand five hundred and forty such talents; and if the gold be reckoned at thirteen times the worth of silver, the Indian gold-dust will come to four yousand six hundred and eighty talents. Add these two amounts together and the whole revenue which came in to Darius year by year will be found to be in Euboic money fourteen yousand five hundred and sixty talents, not to mention parts of a talent.

III.96: Such was the revenue which Darius derived from Asia and a small part of Libya. Later in his reign the sum was increased by the tribute of the islands, and of the nations of Europe as far as Thessaly. The Great King stores away the tribute which he receives after this fashion---he melts it down, and, while it is in a liquid state, runs it into earthen vessels, which are afterwards removed, leaving the metal in a solid mass. When money is wanted, he coins as much of this bullion as the occasion requires.

III.97: Such then were the governments, and such the amounts of tribute at which they were assessed respectively. Persia alone has not been reckoned among the tributaries---and for this reason, because the country of the Persians is altogether exempt from tax. The following peoples paid no settled tribute, but brought gifts to the king: first, the Ethiopians bordering upon Egypt, who were reduced by Cambyses when he made war on the long-lived Ethiopians, and who dwell about the sacred city of Nysa, and have festivals in honour of Bacchus. The grain on which they and their next neighbours feed is the same as that used by the Calantian Indians. Their dwelling-houses are under ground. Every third year these two nations brought---and they still bring to my day---two choenices of virgin gold, two hundred logs of ebony, five Ethiopian boys, and twenty elephant tusks. The Colchians, and the neighbouring tribes who dwell between them and the Caucasus---for so far the Persian rule reaches, while north of the Caucasus no one fears them any longer---undertook to furnish a gift, which in my day was still brought every fifth year, consisting of a hundred boys, and the same number of maidens. The Arabs brought every year a yousand talents of frankincense. Such were the gifts which the king received over and above the tribute-money.


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Postby Ahreeman X » Tue May 24, 2005 4:17 pm

Aqaye Mostofi:

Eradat darim! Kam peydayin Aye Mostofi?! Hal o Ahval?

Hala Chai dovom? Tashrif dashte bashin? Zulbia Bamye Befarmayn! Dar Khedmatim!

I do not know how great are your studies in history; however, Greek historians, specifically Herodot has been, are & will be bias towards Persians. Actually "All" Greek, Roman & Western Historians are bias towards Persians. Unfortunately That Homosexual Drunk Lunatic, Alexandra The Grape (during Macedonian Invasion_Destruction) & then again Omar, Sa'd Ibn Al Vaqas, Ali (Shiite Dayus), Hassan & Hussein (During Arabo_Muslim Invasion_Destruction), in two occasions burned & destroyed almost the complete works & libraries of the Persian History written by Persian Historians! Every story has 2 sides & they destroyed our sides! However, with whatever scattered evidence that we have left (Zoroastrian documents), & with modern researches of westerners & our own historians, we conclude that Herodot was often full of Shiite!

According to Greeks, 100 Spartans end up killing 10,000 Persians! Greeks were Democracy loving civilized folks & Persians were Tyrant Monarchs!

I am going to publish a complete analysis of Persia verses Rome & Greece (Social Patterns), in a later date. I will do this when the new site comes out, but lets just say that our ancestors were way more civilized than Romans & Greeks! The best evidence that I can bring to prove this fact is that:

Slavery did not exist in Iran until Islam invaded Iran! slavery was practiced everywhere in Ancient world including in Civilized Greece & Rome, but not in Persia! I rest my case!

I have no idea if you have read my historical books & mini series & articles in the old IPC website or not? Well too late if not! Because they are gone now! But not to worry, they will be republished in the new site.

The Real Version on Dariuses Election as the Emperor

Reality according to years of studying history by myself & due to my research & readings of 20 different sources, teaches us that:

After The disastrous episode of the Fake Bardia (Geomata the Megi), & his fake claims to be the Bardia (son of Cyrus), The Persian Empire was about to fall in chaos! Before his death & insanity, Cambysis told Darius that in fact he had killed the true Bardia (elder brother), so Darius knew that this guy (Geomata) is a fake!

Darius & Council of Monarchy (6 other Nobels) end up killing The Fake Bardia (Geomata) to save Iran! Geomata (priest) claimed that he is Bardia & was about to start a civil war! Geomata was sort of like Khomeini! Both were Mullahs, one Muslim & one Zoroastrian! Then something amazing in the whole history of Iran had happened!

Council of Monarchy

For the fist time in history of Iran, The Elite Aristocratic Nobels, the wise of Iran gathered as the Council of Monarchy & after much debates elected Darius as the Emperor (voted by the elite). Why? Because:

I. Darius was the rightful next person in line to become Shahanshah. He was the direct descendant , next in line to Cyrus & Cambysis, because he was the closest in line amongst the Achaemenids dynasty, next to the two.

II. Darius was an Achaemenid

III. Darius was a great politician & Warrior

IV. But the most important reason that they elected Darius, was because he was the Wisest and most Qualified. The Qualification was the major factor!

This was the first time that an Oligarchical council of Monarchy, consisting of the Elite Wisest men of Iran decided on who to be the next Shahanshah. Personally I believe that this system of electing the Shahanshah, amongst the wisest & gathering of the Counsil of Monarchy after each Shahanahah passes away, is the best & most logical method to elect the next monarch. Monarchy by heredity is simply idiotic & ilogical, because the replacing Monarch might not be qualified to take control!

The part about Otanesse (Hutane) pro democracy and Mecabiz (Baq Bokhesh) pro Oligarchy of Elite and then Darius pro Monarchy is correct, but the rest,.................. Oh boy!

For your information, the whole garbage about the horses, & Darius cheating the night before & the idiotic method for the counsil to elect the next monarch by Horse Runs & Horse sounds are pure rubbish to put Iranians down as primitive baboons! Why would Darius cheat when obviously he was the next in line?!

Herodot was a biased son of a bitch who exaggerated & created much fascinating abnormal fantastic lies to portrait Greeks as Supermen & Persians as Cowards, Barbarians & Primitive animals! This was all due to envy because Persia was the sole super power of the time which owned the whole civilized & known world except China, but Greece was a rag tag band of 101 City States in battle with one another set aside with Persia! Of course the son of a bitch would create stories out of his ASS!

I, as a historian who studied history since age 10, personally do not value Greek Historians as solid evidence to anything!

Also, for your information, the Achaemenid Persia was ran as the closest thing that we have today as a Federal Government! Each Satrapee (Khashtarah) had almost total autonomy in their internal affairs, as long as they were paying up their taxes to Persepolis. The Military Command & the political Center was Persepolis, but local States had total decision making & independence in their own affairs & governorships. How else do you think that Persians managed to run an Empire stretching from China to Central Africa & to keep all 1001 ethnic cultures & races happy?! That was the most sophesticated method of government to run an empire in those barbaric times! Rome never even came close to running her Empire as civilized as Persia!

As you know, I am not a fan of Monarchy but I believe the Oligarchical Council of Monarchy which occurred during Dariuses Election was the most sophisticated event in the history of Iranian Monarchy. I also believe that this method of electing the Monarch should have continued for thousands of years to avoid blood shed & chaos amongst the later Dynasties & Monarchs.

As you know, each dynasty had a great Shah as the starter of the dynasty & maybe another one somewhere in the line, but the rest of the Shahs in each dynasty were useless bums! The Council of Monarchy consisting of the Wise of Iran, electing the next Shah, would have eliminated all the problems due to heredity of the crown!

Same thing happened on 1925, when Majlis said Adios to Ahmad Shahe Qajar! That's why it is totally silly & ilogical for me to witness all these Monarchists rip their butts aparts to bring a useless bum like Reza Pahlavi to power! I am a man of science & heredity of crown is total nonsense to me!

Anyhow, Haj Mostofi,

The truth of the matter on what had happened to Darius was a world apart than what Herodot wrote!

It is true that Iranians were far away from Democracy, but they were also far away from the baboons that Herodot portrayed! Persians were the most civilized folks of that era! Later on, I will write a long series about this issue & I will bring evidence & 20 sources on the truth of the events back then!

Greek historians were almost as bad as Hollywood directors on Iran!

Always remember that there are 2 sides to the coin!

PS: Ali Aqa, what is your preferable government of liking in general & your preferable government of liking for Iran? What say you Mostofi?

Mashmooleh Khahid? Sar Qalat Talabid? Jombuni Khahid? Maktabi hastid? Qeylule Khahid? Where do you stand Ya Mostofi?


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Postby alimostofi » Tue May 24, 2005 4:57 pm

Thanks for taking the time to write your thoughts. You seem calmer. Good.

This is my Goofy system. It is funny and cool!

I believe in a system where Nationalism is in the hands of Monarchy; so that politicians, and theocrats do not abuse it for their own short coming.

I believe that politics should be in the hands of an elected assembly of politicians; whereby they are only appointed when everyone has voted. Their job is to handle the economy; so as to provide the minimum standard of security, health and education for all, and to make sure that no monarch or philosopher interfers.

I believe that there should be philosophers to make sure that there would be a moral order based on non-violence and human rights, and that politics and nationalism do not abuse that moral order for their own benefit.

As you can see this produces a magic triangle of power.

And above all it satisfies the KISS principle - you know - Keep It Simple Stupid! After all, all things in Life have to have a sense of humour for them to exist, because there is only Life, and it is either fun or funny.

With thanks and best wishes.

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